Comments on: The Ruby Experience http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202 [ scion of backronymics ] Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:01:18 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: apotheon http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202&cpage=1#comment-17522 apotheon Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:34:08 +0000 http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202#comment-17522 That's understandable. I guess I'm just lucky enough to have had a far more rewarding experience using Perl than you have. Feel similarly about Python, actually, though for different reasons -- like every brush with it teaches me nothing that's transferable to other languages. It seems too limited to its own little world, too much like wearing a straight jacket that is designed to segregate the programmer from the practices of any other language or community. That's probably just me, though. That's understandable. I guess I'm just lucky enough to have had a far more rewarding experience using Perl than you have.

Feel similarly about Python, actually, though for different reasons — like every brush with it teaches me nothing that's transferable to other languages. It seems too limited to its own little world, too much like wearing a straight jacket that is designed to segregate the programmer from the practices of any other language or community. That's probably just me, though.

]]> By: Peter Harkins http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202&cpage=1#comment-17517 Peter Harkins Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:20:07 +0000 http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202#comment-17517 The reason I don't like delving deeply into Perl is that I don't seem to learn things that are transferable out of Perl. When I learned Ocaml I learned to think about composability in every part of my designs. When I learned Lisp, I learned to see the AST in every language. When I learn that a Perl operator behaves almost totally differently in a slightly different context, I feel like at best I've learned trivia and at worst I've wasted my time. And some folks do like the <a href="http://mark.santaniello.net/archives/206">syntax</a>, though probably not for the intended reason. The reason I don't like delving deeply into Perl is that I don't seem to learn things that are transferable out of Perl. When I learned Ocaml I learned to think about composability in every part of my designs. When I learned Lisp, I learned to see the AST in every language. When I learn that a Perl operator behaves almost totally differently in a slightly different context, I feel like at best I've learned trivia and at worst I've wasted my time.

And some folks do like the syntax, though probably not for the intended reason.

]]> By: apotheon http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202&cpage=1#comment-17191 apotheon Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:36:23 +0000 http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202#comment-17191 I don't find Perl to be incoherent at all (intentional obfuscations and merely awful coding aside -- as we'd ignore both in any language while discussing the point of readability). What I do find is that TIMTOWTDI enables a far wider range of almost paradigmatic differences in how one achieves a given goal, which can prove frustrating to someone looking to just use what (s)he already knows to understand a bit of code sometimes, without having to learn anything new. I think part of the reason I keep coming back to Perl is, simply put, that it keeps providing new and wonderful "mind-bending" experiences akin to what is generally regarded as one of the main reasons to learn many languages. When a different Perlish sub-language is used to achieve the same ends with different economies of scale, performance, maintainability, mularity, and so on, it generally teaches me something new about programming -- and, as a result, makes me a better programmer. I guess that's why Perl often seems to be more of a "hacker's" language, in the non-pejorative sense of "hacker", than most others: it is a language that has a heck of a lot of potential for helping programmers learn to think differently from the way they already think, many times over rather than simply the obligatory one time of moving to a new language. Since a passion for learning new things, at least within a particular field of study, seems to be central to what differentiates a hacker from a mere daycoder, the shoe fits. As I continue to think about it, Perl seems to attract more of that sort of hackish attitude toward programming, while Python seems to attract a more formalized, do the job "right" attitude -- and the respective programming language communities of each reflect that. It may also foster more of an outward-looking sense of how a community's particular language fits in the programming world in Perl than in Python, because Perl is sort of the English of programming languages: it borrows from everywhere, and occasionally even contributes back. I'm in danger of rambling at this point, so I'll cut it short. <strong>Welcome to SOB.</strong> I'm glad you stopped by and offered your perspective. I don't find Perl to be incoherent at all (intentional obfuscations and merely awful coding aside — as we'd ignore both in any language while discussing the point of readability). What I do find is that TIMTOWTDI enables a far wider range of almost paradigmatic differences in how one achieves a given goal, which can prove frustrating to someone looking to just use what (s)he already knows to understand a bit of code sometimes, without having to learn anything new.

I think part of the reason I keep coming back to Perl is, simply put, that it keeps providing new and wonderful "mind-bending" experiences akin to what is generally regarded as one of the main reasons to learn many languages. When a different Perlish sub-language is used to achieve the same ends with different economies of scale, performance, maintainability, mularity, and so on, it generally teaches me something new about programming — and, as a result, makes me a better programmer.

I guess that's why Perl often seems to be more of a "hacker's" language, in the non-pejorative sense of "hacker", than most others: it is a language that has a heck of a lot of potential for helping programmers learn to think differently from the way they already think, many times over rather than simply the obligatory one time of moving to a new language. Since a passion for learning new things, at least within a particular field of study, seems to be central to what differentiates a hacker from a mere daycoder, the shoe fits.

As I continue to think about it, Perl seems to attract more of that sort of hackish attitude toward programming, while Python seems to attract a more formalized, do the job "right" attitude — and the respective programming language communities of each reflect that. It may also foster more of an outward-looking sense of how a community's particular language fits in the programming world in Perl than in Python, because Perl is sort of the English of programming languages: it borrows from everywhere, and occasionally even contributes back.

I'm in danger of rambling at this point, so I'll cut it short. Welcome to SOB. I'm glad you stopped by and offered your perspective.

]]> By: Peter Harkins http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202&cpage=1#comment-17116 Peter Harkins Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:15:48 +0000 http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=202#comment-17116 Glad you liked it. I did Python for a year and a half professionally, and I really like Python as well. You're right, it has a very different feel: it's more deliberate, obvious, and explicit. TMTOWTDI doesn't work at all for me, and I think it's one of the reasons that Perl isn't very popular anymore. I like that when I read Python there's not a large variation in coding style to wade through. Ruby is a bit more flexible than Python, but not so flexible it's incoherent like Perl often is. Glad you liked it. I did Python for a year and a half professionally, and I really like Python as well. You're right, it has a very different feel: it's more deliberate, obvious, and explicit.

TMTOWTDI doesn't work at all for me, and I think it's one of the reasons that Perl isn't very popular anymore. I like that when I read Python there's not a large variation in coding style to wade through. Ruby is a bit more flexible than Python, but not so flexible it's incoherent like Perl often is.

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